Presented by
On 2000.01.13, Larry King (LK) interviewed the following about the ongoing Southern Baptists' crusade to proselytize Jews (listed alphabetically):
[ybd] (indicates comments by The Honorable Pâ•qid′ Yi•rәmәyâh′ u Bën-Dâ•wid′ , Pâ•qid′ 16 of the Nәtzâr•im′ )
I'm a former Southern Baptist and Christian preacher knowledgeable in the Bible—and Christian NT—in its (their) original languages who, in order to become more like the historical Pharisee Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, abandoned Christianity of the post-135 C.E. apostate Hellenized gentile (Roman) Church and converted to Orthodox Judaism, the Pharisaic Judaism that Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a lived and taught. Today I'm an Orthodox Jew in good standing in Raanana, Israel where I pray regularly in, and serve on the board of, an Orthodox synagogue (Beit ha-K'neset Moreshet Avot).
Thinking Southern Baptists will be interested in why I opted to part ways with the Southern Baptist Church and Christianity. The answer is vital to Southern Baptists and goes to the very heart of what it means to be a Southern Baptist and the issue of exactly who and what was historical figure underlying the modern Christian — including Southern Baptist — image of Christ and Christian doctrines.
Like the old country song, I was a Southern Baptist before being Southern Baptist was cool. In the late 50s and early 60s, I was a Southern Baptist 'witnessing Christian' in high school, the organist for a Southern Baptist Church and full of the 'Holy Spirit.' I had earlier attended the most elite Christian boarding school, the same school to which Billy Graham sent his daughter (one year after I attended) — Hampden DuBose Academy in Zellwood, FL.
As a former Southern Baptist and independent Baptist preacher, I understand, and can relate and communicate with, Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and Jews for Jesus David Brickner. I've written several books on the subject (available through the Netzarim Judaica Shoppe in the Mall of the website at www.netzarim.co.il) summarizing many years of Biblical research, including teaching myself enough Greek to translate the entire Null Testament (NT) from all of the earliest extant source documents up through the 4th century (with the help of dictionaries, Greek grammar books, etc.), and teaching myself enough Hebrew to translate Tan"kh and the Hebrew tradition of Matityahu. Both Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and Jews for Jesus David Brickner would find my knowledge of Christianity, particularly 1st- through 4th-century Christianity, formidable.
I also have an intimate knowledge of Orthodox Judaism enabling me to relate just as well to the rabbis in the interview. My Biblical research conclusively confirmed that following the genuine historical Yehoshua Ben-Yoseiph Ben-David of Natzrat (corrupted to "Nazareth") required renouncing the gentile Roman counterfeit, Christianity and Jesus, in order to follow the genuine practice and teachings of the authentic historical Jew, Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, and his original Jewish followers — the Netzarim (de-Judaized to 'Nazarenes'). Having done so, I converted — with full and in-depth disclosure of my beliefs — to Orthodox Judaism. As an Orthodox Jew for more than 15 years, I'm a member in good standing on the board of the Orthodox synagogue of Yemenite Jews here in Ra'anana, Israel — Moreshet Avot. Though I've not pursued semikhah, Rabbi Hier and Rabbi Boteach would find that my effort to do my best to keep Torah has been recognized by the appropriate Orthodox rabbis and rabbinic authorities, and that my knowledge of Judaism, particularly 1st- through 4th-century Judaism, is respectable.
Based on my knowledge of both Christianity and Judaism, it was clear to me that
Consequently, I have analyzed the interview with a critical, but constructive, eye toward the shortcomings of both sides of the conflict. To help the reader keep the players straight, the affiliations have been associated at least once in every paragraph for each interviewee. There is no significant difference in the positions and arguments expressed in this interview from the polemics conducted for the last 2,000 years. Neither side has yet learned that there is no potential for resolving the conflict by regurgitating the same polemics which have failed for 2,000 years. Before there can be any progress, at least one side must overcome some obstacles. Thus, I provide in my comments to this interview new information — which has only been discovered in the past few decades — suggestions for remedying each shortcoming, the only possible suggestions which lead to resolution of the conflict.
The second thing to note is that people in a live interview show often fail to say what they would prefer to say if given a little more time to think about their answer. Thus, in all of their defense, it's much easier to be critical here than to answer well on TV.
I missed taping the first couple of minutes of the show and, following a commercial, failed to get the tape running again for a minute or so, apparently missing an important answer to a question posed before the commercial break. What follows, then, are all of the excerpts and comments from the tape which I feel are germane to the matter under discussion: the Southern Baptist outreach to Jews.
There are several points which, had the participants resolved at the beginning, would have contributed to a more constructive discussion and understanding (which was nearly totally lacking on both parts relative to their counterparts). Consider as you read through the interview how many conspicuous misunderstandings would have been avoided by adhering to the ground rules proposed below. (Several paragraphs of explanation, which will follow the first remark of the interview, are essential for the reader to grasp and orient to these objectives and this essential strategy.)
I pick up the interview with [Jews for Jesus David Brickner] "We are 100% Jewish and 100% Christian. We are like the first Jews for Jesus...
Historians such as the late Oxford scholar on anti-Semitism, James Parkes noted in his book The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue, the glaring, diametric, differences between the pro-Torah Netzarim (Jews) of the 1st-century (the original 'Nazarene' Jews who followed Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a; typically, but inaccurately, referred to as '1st-Century Christianity') and the anti-Torah gentile Christians of the 4th-century (more accurately post-135 CE).
It has been indisputably demonstrated from Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT, and before that from the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha and other Judaic literature of the period, that the historically-correct first Jewish followers whom Mr. Brickner appropriates (the original followers of the historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a as Mashiakh) were the pro-Torah Netzarim (Jews) of the 1st-century. By contrast, the post-135 CE anti-Torah Christians, Christianity and the Roman gentile image of Jesus — which is the religion Mr. Brickner has just acknowledged Jews for Jesus advocates "100%" — were a diametric antithesis of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and his original pro-Torah Netzarim followers in the 1st century. Mr. Brickner couldn't be more wrong when he claims that his 4th century Displacement Theology Christianity is anything like the 1st century historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and his original Netzarim followers in the Jewish community. Jews for Jesus is, like the rest of Christianity, the diametric antithesis of the 1st century historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and his original Netzarim followers in the Jewish community. Mr. Brickner's claim is spurious and the rabbis were incompetent for not rejecting his claim.
Look at just a little of the evidence. Our web site (click on the Netzarim 'Olive Trees & Menorah' logo at the very top or very bottom of this page) covers much more and the books in our Khavruta (Distance Learning) document in detail the many intractable contradictions inherent in Christianity. All major encyclopedias corroborate, and our books document, that even the earliest Christian Church historians recorded that Easter, Christmas, Sun-[god-] day worship and the like were adopted into Christianity several centuries after the death of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, only by gentiles who were native Roman pagans; and only after 135 CE, after the Roman gentiles had forcibly wrested control from the Netzarim. The same Roman pagans did this at the same time they paganized Yerushalayim into "Aelia Capitolina" — dedicated to Zeus and sun-worship (and, by the way, included renaming the land wrested from the Jews, calling it for the first time "Palestine").
Long before Christ, Christmas was the pagan celebration of the birthday of the sun-god, Mithra! Listen to Grolier's Multimedia Encyclopedia 95 under "Christmas": "Despite the beliefs about Christ that the birth stories expressed, the church did not observe a festival for the celebration of the event until the 4th century. The date was chosen to counter [syncretize is the accurate word as documented by the Encarta Encyclopedia below] the pagan festivities connected with the winter solstice; since 274, under the emperor Aurelian, Rome had celebrated the feast of the "Invincible Sun" on December 25." It is also well demonstrated, in our books as well as others, that historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a was absolutely not born in winter. Our books demonstrate this, and further that his birth occurred in late spring. The astronomical events even provide the exact date.
Moreover, the Encarta Multimedia Encyclopedia 95 documents that the adoption of the birthday of the sun god into Christianity "since the 4th century" was, in fact, a syncretism of their native paganism merely given a new 'spin': "Christmas festivals, generally observed by Christians since the 4th century, incorporate pagan customs, such as the use of holly, mistletoe, Yule logs, and wassail bowls. The Christmas tree, an evergreen trimmed with lights and other decorations, is derived from the so-called paradise tree, symbolizing Eden, of German mystery plays. The use of a Christmas tree began early in the 17th century, in Strasbourg, France..." The first Christmas was in the 4th century, not the 1st century, and celebrated the birthday of the sun-god-syncretized "Jesus" (whose face, John Romer has documented in a video cited in our web site, was the face of the Great Idol of Zeus!). Christmas, with its inherently pagan origins, has never had any connection to the historical Jew Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a who was born in late spring. "Jesus," by the way, is not merely a translation of the Hebrew Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a. This is documented in our book, Who Are the Netzarim?.
The change from Shabat to Sun- (god-) day didn't occur until long after 135 CE (cf. Samuele Bacchiocchi, "How It Came About: From Satur(n)-day to Sun-day," Biblical Archaeology Review, IV, 3, 78.09-10, p. 32ff). This, of course, was long after the death of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, and after Roman gentiles — seething in post-war misojudaism — had forcibly wrenched control from the original followers of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a in 135 CE as part of their paganization of the city of Aelia Capitolina, which they dedicated to their pagan gods Jupiter / Zeus and sun-worship, built overtop the ruins of Yerushalayim.
Long before Christ, Easter was the spring festival for Esotera / Ishtar / Astarte / Ashtoreth. Easter didn't become part of Christianity until gentiles, centuries after the death of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, syncretized the pagan festival into their own native Roman (and gentile) belief system. This occurred only after the Roman gentiles had wrested control from the original followers of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a in 135 CE (then headed by the 15th paqid, Yehudah, who was forcibly ousted by the first gentile Roman "bishop," Marcus) in their paganized city of Aelia Capitolina built overtop the ruins of Yerushalayim. The paganization of Yerushalayim into Aelia Capitolina, dedicated to Zeus and sun worship, is complemented by the "coincidental gentilization" of the Netzarim by gentiles who commenced to syncretize pagan worship!!! That these first Christians are the diametric antithesis of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and his authentic, Netzarim Jews, followers is solidly documented from the historical record and cannot be credibly or reasonably disputed.
All of the Judaic documentation up through 135 CE demonstrates that historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and the Netzarim were observant of Jewish law. The Dead Sea Scrolls (specifically 4Q MMT) demonstrate that all sects of legitimate 1st-century Judaism (i.e., under the aegis of the Beit Din ha-Gadol, the 'Great Sanhedrin'), while defending their individual interpretations, included the Oral Law within the definition of Torah / Judaism.
As religious Jews functioning within the legitimate Jewish community, this included Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and the Netzarim. Our books demonstrate that Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a obtained semikhah (ordainment) from Gamlieil himself — the grandson (and patriarch of the House) of Hileil (pop. "Hillel"), who was also the nasi (president) of the Beit Din ha-Gadol. This necessarily means that Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a was a Perushim (Pharisee) Ribi! It shouldn't be surprising, then, that, although the redactors buried it pretty well, we still find that Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a endorsed the Perushim in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) (23:1-3).
The title Ribi was exclusive to those who obtained semikhah jointly by the patriarch of one of the recognized Houses (in this case, the House of Hileil, corrupted to 'Hillel') and the nasi of the Beit Din ha-Gadol in pre-Palestine Yehudah (Judea / Jew). Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a obtained semikhah directly from head of the Beit Din ha-Gadol who was the grandson-patriarch of Hileil! He clearly didn't get there by advocating the Hellenism, Displacement Theology, supersessionism, self-divinity, blatant paganism and seething misojudaism of the post-135 CE gentiles who created Christianity and the Church and which inherently has characterized Jesus, Christianity and the Church ever since, including today.
Post-135 CE redactions and Christian literature present an image, Jesus, diametrically opposite to the pro-Torah historical Jew, Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, who lived in the religious community described in Dead Sea Scroll 4Q MMT et al. The product of the Roman gentiles — Jesus and Christianity — is also the diametric opposite of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and his original followers (the Netzarim = 'Nazarene' Jews of Israel) on the question of the validity versus replacement (displacement / supersession, by the Null Testament (NT)) of the Tan"kh.
It's logically inescapable that 1st-Century Christianity was a misojudaic fabrication of post-135 CE gentile Roman pagans, retrojected backward into the 1st century long after the fact, and diametrically contradictory to 1st century pro-Judaic Jews and historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a. "Jesus," it turns out, is the misojudaic image fabricated by post-135 CE gentile Roman pagans, diametrically antithetical to the 1st century pro-Torah Jew named Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and his original Netzarim Jews followers. For those who believe that Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a is the Mashiakh, how, then, must the opposite of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a as the Mashiakh be described? Jesus the... (what)?? The obvious answer from the Christian lexicon, prophesied in some detail by Danieil, is 'antichrist' or the 'Beast' of Danieil. Blurring Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a with his antithesis is ignorant axe-grinding coupled with obsessive self deception. Blurring the followers of Jesus with the followers of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, and/or the words/teachings of Jesus with the words/teachings of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, is no different.
To call the pro-Torah Netzarim '1st-Century Christianity' or call Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a "Jesus" as if these diametric opposites were the same, is to horrendously ascribe to Torah-observant Jews Christian doctrines which historians and encyclopedias indisputably document didn't exist until syncretized from paganism by gentiles centuries later.
Neither Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a nor his original Netzarim followers had to pretend to be in Israel (equating themselves to 'spiritual Israel'), to pretend to be in the legitimate Jewish community (equating the body of the Church, which didn't come into existence until a century later, to 'spiritual Jews'), or pretend to practice legitimate Judaism. They were legitimate. Jesus and Christianity, by contrast, were never in the legitimate Jewish community or legitimate Judaism.
Like the original Netzarim, the Netzarim of today are reconstructed according to the extant historical documentation within the legitimate Orthodox Jewish community here in Israel — the real Orthodox Jewish community in the real Israel. The Honorable Paqid of the Netzarim, Yirmeyahu Ben-David, Paqid] 16, in Ra'anana, Israel — is an Orthodox Jew recognized by Orthodox rabbis, the Israeli rabbinate and Chief Rabbis, and is a member in good standing on the board of the Orthodox synagogue of Yemenite Jews (Moreshet Avot, in Ra'anana, recognized by the Israeli rabbinate and Chief Rabbis) where he and his family pray regularly and participate in synagogue functions and social life. We live and function within the Orthodox community and Israel in the real, rational, world. We aren't self-proclaimed pretenders in a pretend "spiritual Israel" opposite to the real Israel and opposite to historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a and 1st-century Judaism like the wannabe counterfeits and false teachers of the Roman deception.
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner continues] Peter, James and John were the first Jews for Jesus, and Jesus himself is Jewish...
It's already been shown that the Christian "St. Peter" was a Roman image diametrically contradictory to the 1st century pro-Torah Netzarim Jew, Shimon 'Keipha. The same is true of the Christian "St. James" versus the first Netzarim Paqid, Ya·aqov Ben-David and the Christian "St. John" versus Yokhanan. It's also clearly demonstrated that nothing is more intractably antithetical to historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a — and being Jewish — than the Christian "Jesus."
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner continues] and this is not about subterfuge, and this is not about appropriating symbols. After all, Jesus used Jewish symbols.
[ybd] Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner is correct here. This isn't about appropriating symbols. It's about historical truth. Mr. Brickner believes Jesus used Jewish symbols.
"Jesus," as we've demonstrated that image to be — in fact recorded by Eusebius — loathed Jewish symbols, displaced Judaism to the maximum extent possible, claimed supersession of the Null Testament (NT), labeled even the Netzarim Jews as "servants of Satan and enemies of the Church, and killed the last vestiges of the Netzarim Jews in 333 CE precisely because they refused to go to church instead of synagogue, on Easter instead of Pesakh, and eat pork on the way out, as documented by Bellarmino Bagatti, "The Church from the Circumcision" (Yerushalayim: Franciscan Press, 1970, pp. 13-14)!
Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner believes Jesus used Jewish symbols because, like every other Christian, he hasn't disciplined himself to take a hard look at the historical facts. Like Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and every other Christian, he has blindly accepted the Christian line in "abysmal ignorance without thoroughly investigating the historical facts."
[LK] [Jesus] was Jewish... He was Jewish, and so the message of faith in him is a very Jewish message.
[ybd] Historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, who was diametrically opposite to Jesus, was Jewish. Jesus, by contrast, is a post-135 CE anti-Judaic image produced by Roman gentiles through syncretization of their Roman paganism and tens of thousands of documented redactions, many of them anti-Judaic, of Null Testament (NT) source texts. No, Mr. King. Jesus was not Jewish, "it" was an image, an idol. "And so the message of faith in Him" is idolatry which is intractably contradictory to Judaism.
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] I am absolutely against any religion that says that one faith is superior to another. I don't see how that is any different from spiritual racism. It's a way of saying we are closer to god than you, and that's what leads to hatred... totalitarian... culminated in the Holocaust.
[ybd] Either Rabbi Boteach doesn't comprehend the Torah and Judaism of Mosheh on Har Sinai or he's being deliberately disingenuous. Since he's a former Oxford chaplain and Orthodox rabbi, I must assume the latter. If he, or his colleagues, cannot see the transparency or foolishness of this conspicuously absurd assertion then he shouldn't be representing Judaism or Torah in such a forum. Christians aren't ignorant of what their Original Testament (OT) says about the unique truth and One-ness of ha-Sheim , as Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler demonstrates below.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] ...and, you know, when it comes to the issue of claims that the belief that the Christian Gospel is the only Gospel, and that Jesus is the only Savior, that that's totalitarian, I find that very strange coming from the people whose own book in the 'Old Testament' speaks about the One True god over against the false god-s.
[ybd] Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler should immediately have been remonstrated for referring to our Tan"kh as the 'Old Testament'! Besides being logically petitio principii (in assuming the supersession of the Null Testament (NT)), it's denigrating and offensive.
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] Don't come and use subterfuge — Rosh ha-Shanah, Yom Kipur, and a shophar... Those aren't Christian symbols.
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] Doesn't that sound a bit to you like if you don't have blond hair and blue eyes you're going to go up in a furnace? Doesn't that sound exactly the same?
[ybd] Orthodox R. Boteach's ignoratio elenchi not only reflects poorly on Judaism but detracted from Orthodox R. Hier's effort to try and represent Judaism responsibly.
[LK, ignoring Orthodox R. Boteach's ignoratio elenchi] Orthodox R. Hier, that's important. If he just believes that if you die and you don't accept this you're going to hell, and he would like to send you to heaven, he's trying to help you. What's wrong with that?
[MH, also ignoring Orthodox R. Boteach's ignoratio elenchi] There's nothing wrong with that, as I said before, if he feels that strongly. What's wrong is their methodology. They're very deceptive about it. They're using our symbols... But once Jesus left the Jewish people, and his disciples created a new religion, they are two separate religions.
[LK] He didn't create a new religion did he?
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] No, his disciples did. They created Christianity and, therefore, you can be either Jewish or Christian. You cannot be both... You're one or the other.
[ybd] Orthodox R. Hier was logically precise and correct in using the term "Jewish" rather than "Jew." While halakhah defines those born of a Jewish mother to be a Jew, Christians are no more Jewish (= Judaic = Torah-observant) than Jews practicing Buddhism, Hinduism, Voodoo, neo-paganism, or Satanism. (Note: One must be careful not to categorize Islam, which isn't idolatrous, with these other contra-Judaic religions.) Christian Jews fraudulently calling themselves 'Messianic Jews' (e.g., 'Jews for Jesus') are notorious for finding it to their advantage to confuse this issue claiming "We're 100% Jews and we're 100% Christians" (which you will find corroborated in this interview, by the way) trying to imply that their teaching is Judaism because they are Jews advocating it. They are apostate Jews advocating a contra-Judaic religion comparable to Buddhism, etc. Jews yes — apostate; Jewish/Judaism/Judaic no! In fact, Torah takes a harsher view than the rabbis, defining such apostates as excised from Israel, the Jewish people, on a number of counts which all Christian Jews are guilty simply by adhering to Christian doctrines which are intractably contradictory to Torah.
Rav Hier corrects one of his misstatements, but, though he is correct in the main, a misstatement still remains. It was not the talmidim ("disciples") of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a who created Christianity. Rather, it was the Roman gentiles who wrested control from the Netzarim as part of the Roman destruction and consequent deliberate paganization of Yerushalayim into Aelia Capitolina in 135 CE. These first — original and earliest — Christians exiled the Netzarim from their pagan city of Aelia Capitolina, which was dedicated to Jupiter, Zeus and sun-worship, built overtop the ruins of our Holy City. These first Christians of 135 CE, who were essentially Roman pagans selectively syncretizing a few Judaic ideas they found appealing, created the new religion of Christianity.
In fact, selectivity, selective-observance, is the sine qua non which has always distinguished Christianity from legitimate Judaism. This selectivity of Jewish symbols, rather than embracing Torah-observance non-selectively, is the problem which Orthodox R. Hier has, rightly, raised. Non-selective Torah-observance is why the Orthodox rabbis accepted me to become an Orthodox Jew — being fully informed that I recognize Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a as the Mashiakh — while Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner, even though he was born a Jew, is deemed apostate as long as he embraces Christianity. Belief regarding who the Mashiakh is, or isn't, has proven an extremely deceptive red herring. The real sine qua non is, has always been, and will always remain, the issue of non-selective Torah-observance.
While Orthodox R. Hier is right that Christians cannot be Jewish, don't blame Christianity on either historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a or his authentic followers.
[LK] ... I've interviewed Billy Graham many times and when I asked him about this, about death and salvation and heaven and hell, he said that he's not going to judge it because maybe everybody at death does find Christ, so he's never going to try to convert Jews. Would you agree that a fair opinion to have? That maybe when a Jew dies, at the moment of death, he, or she, finds Christ? Is that a fair statement?
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] I do not believe that I have a copyright on truth as a Jew. I believe that my Judaism is true for Jews, in the same way that feminism may be true for women.
As Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler will soon point out, Rabbi Boteach's position is a sophomoric and self-contradicting knock-off of 'New Age' egalitarianism. Something is true or it isn't. To claim that one thing is true for Jews and there's another, different, truth for everyone else is racist, and it contradicts Torah. While Orthodox R. Boteach emotionally, and rudely, flames the Christians for being racist we find that his own views are racist. Physician heal thyself.
In answer to Mr. King's question, it's an equally fair statement to say that when a Christian dies, at the moment of death, he, or she, finds, too late, that the Torah they have rejected and never practiced is true. To suggest that Jews "find Christ" at death is petitio principii, presuming that Christianity, rather than Judaism, is true. It is not a fair statement, it is a ludicrous statement.
[LK] According to the Jew who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] Every good person. We have a statement in Talmud which says that you are judged on deeds... We're not god. We don't have the keys to heaven, but god is not going to deny Mahatma Ghandi, and he's not going to deny great humanitarians. For example, today you have the Dalai Lama, so we're going to say because he didn't verbalize a belief? If a man is a good person he merits heaven.
[ybd] Talmud does indeed say that we are judged on deeds. Talmud doesn't even suggest, however, that "every good person" goes to ha-Olam ha-Ba (heaven). Quite the contrary. Talmud — not to mention the Amidah and Aleinu recited in Orthodox synagogue services — teaches that one must be at least a Torah-observant non-Jew — the 1st-century definition of geir (cf. Lewis H. Feldman, Prof. of Classics at Yeshiva Univ. in NYC — Orthodox, "The Omnipresence of the god-Fearers," Biblical Archaeology Review, XXII.5, 1986.09-10, 59-69). Neither is this position, a product of 2,000 years of 'survival mode' defensiveness, supportable from Torah outside a yeshivah. And the Christians know this better than anyone else. Jews cannot engage Christians while continuing to hide their head in the sand on this issue. To engage Christians, Jews need to ask — and answer — some critical questions about the holiness of ha-Sheim, the means of kipur from transgression of Torah (which we will get into later), and to whom kipur is accessible and under what conditions. Tan"kh is crystal clear on this issue, and virtually every knowledgeable Christian knows the two major quotations so the issue won't ever go away:
וניתקדצ-לכ םידע דגבכו ונלכ אמטכ יהנו
(ve-nehi kha-tamei kulanu, ukh-veged idim kal-tzidqoteinu; We have become contaminated, all of us; and like a menstrual rag are all of our righteousnesses).The failure of Orthodox Judaism to come to grips with this issue is one of the main causes that Christians have the impression that Orthodox Judaism is a religion of "blind" ignorance. This is the pivotal, and most crucial, issue of the interview. Most every Christian knows from the Original Testament (OT) that man can't be "good" enough to commune with ha-Sheim in heaven — as Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler demonstrates by immediately pouncing upon it. Jews continue not to grasp this (acknowledging isn't comprehending) and deal with it (effectively); repeatedly demonstrating (in the Christian mind), that Jews continue to be blind, lost, etc. I will deal with this further in response to a later valid and pivotal statement by Jews for Jesus David Brickner.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] ... before god we are all sinners in need of a savior. "There is not one who is good; no, not one" says the Scriptures.
[ybd] Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler has the gist right. What the Scriptures say is (Tehilim 14.3):
דחא-םג ןיא בוט-השע ןיא וחלאנ ודחי רס לכה
(ha-kol sar, yakhdav ne·elakhu ein oseih-tov; ein jam-ekhad; everyone has strayed, together they have become infected; there aren't any doing good; there isn't even one).
The question is why Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler doesn't accept Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a's explanation of this passage in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 19.17:
"Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a said to him, "Why do you ask me about 'good?' One [referring to ha-Sheim] is Good. If you wish to come into life, keep shomeir (watchguard, over the) mitzvot."
Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner must not be allowed to avoid this issue. Refusing to non-selectively keep shomeir-Torah defies not only Tan"kh, but the words of the very person they claim they follow as the Mashiakh. They are defying, not following, Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a. This is deliberate and arrogant hypocrisy which causes the hypocrisy of the 'Pharisees' condemned by Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a to pale in comparison. As Rabbi Boteach pointed out, Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a declared in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 5:
"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim, but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens!
I recall also Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a condemning the hypocrisy which is characteristic of 'spiritual Israel' — eating, worshipping and living like pagans instead of Israel, according to gentile Roman doctrines instead of Tan"kh. As Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a warned in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 7.15ff:
"Take heed against false Neviim who come to you in wool like sheep [i.e. disguised as Jews / Israel], but inside they are wolves who extort. You shall recognize them by their works [Do they eat kasheir??? Do they wear tzitzit??? Do they don Tephilin??? Do they keep Shabat and the other mitzvot??? It's s-o-o-o easy to recognize them]. Do men pick grapes from a stinging-nettle? Or figs from a thistle? So, every green tree is unable to produce evil fruit, and a dried-up tree is unable to produce good fruit."
By their own confession, Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and Jews for Jesus David Brickner produce what Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a defined as the evil fruits of deliberately transgressing the Word of ha-Sheim which all in this interview agree is Tan"kh. And what does Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a say of their fate??? (ibid.) —
"Every tree that is not producing good fruit [as defined in Tan"kh] is cut out and thrown into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits, that is their works, you shall recognize them. Not everyone saying 'Sir' to me will enter the Realm of the heavens. Rather, he who does the wish of my Father who is in the heavens shall enter into the Realm of the heavens. In that day many will say to me, 'Sir, sir, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we throw out demonic-forces in your name? Didn't we do many signs for your name?' Then I will attest to them, 'I never knew you. (Tehilim 6.9): "Turn aside from me all doers of crookedness!."'
Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler, as it turns out, it is you and Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner, and all other Christians, who Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a the Mashiakh condemns to hell because you are not doing what Torah — and Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a the Mashiakh — commanded you. I call upon you to repent, to renounce the post-135 CE pagan antichrist Jesus, and to follow instead the historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a to find salvation from hell.
Caller from La Mesa, NM I believe that there is One god overall, so what is the conflict?
[LK] [Jews for Jesus] David Brickner... you believe there's One god overall, right? The conflict is who's the road to Him?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Yes, absolutely; and the issue is whether or not Jesus really is the Messiah. He claimed to be. He claimed to be the One sent from god to bring us back to the Father and that's what we believe, and so the issue really is not a conflict between Judaism and the Southern Baptists but a question: Is Jesus the Messiah?
[ybd] The issue isn't at all whether Jesus really is the Messiah. First, it isn't altogether clear from Hebrew Matityahu that historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a ever made such claim. Either way however, whatever post-135 CE claim may be retrojected upon a misojudaic Jesus of pagan Roman gentiles is irrelevant. Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner attempts to divert attention from the real issue: can a gentile image intractably antithetical to the very Tan"kh which prophesies the Mashiakh be the Messiah?
Tan"kh provides the clear and unambiguous answer (Devarim 13.1-6):
"The entire word [i.e. non-selectively] that I command you, that shall you keep to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. If there should stand up in your midst a prophet... and he will produce for you a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass which he foretold to you saying, 'Let us follow
god-s of others that you didn't know and we shall worship them' Don't hearken to the words of that 'prophet'... for ha-Sheim, your Elohim, is testing you to know whether you love ha-Sheim, your Elohim, with all of your heart and with all of your soul. Ha-Sheim, your Elohim, shall you follow, and Him shall you revere; His mitzvot shall you keep and to His voice shall you hearken..."
Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner, no matter how much you might like to avoid or evade it, the historical fact is that post-135 CE Jesus has always been the champion of supersessionism, Displacement Theology and misojudaism. It is totally impossible that Jesus, or any other person or thing which stands for superseding Tan"kh as an Original Testament (OT) to be the Messiah prophesied in that same Tan"kh. Any child can understand that when Jesus invalidates Tan"kh it invalidates its very basis for claiming to be the Messiah. If Tan"kh is valid then it clearly stipulates that Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah. If, on the other hand, you hold Tan"kh to be invalid then you have no basis for any Messiah at all. If, on the third hand (??), you hold that Tan"kh was valid but is no longer valid, having been superseded by the Null Testament (NT), then you serve a capricious god which changes its mind, certainly not ha-Sheim of the Tan"kh who does not change (Malakhi 3.6; Tehilim 89.35) — which, yet again, disqualifies Jesus.
It is inescapable that the issue very definitely is, as Oxford scholar James Parkes demonstrated, The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue, particularly, at this juncture, the Southern Baptists. It is clear in this that there is no logical possibility that Jesus is the Messiah. The issue isn't even whether historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a is the Mashiakh. The identity of the Mashiakh will become clear only after the conflict between Judaism and Christianity is resolved. Jews do know, however, that the Mashiakh will be a champion of Tan"kh, not paganism.
[LK] As a loving Messiah, if he were here right now... hold it rabbi (to Orthodox R. Boteach again interrupting), if Jesus were here right now, as a loving messiah and Rabbi Hier or R. Boteach would say to him "I love you but I don't think you're the Messiah," Jesus would condemn them to hell? ... Would Jesus Christ say "You're going to hell"?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Absolutely, because Jesus said that before. We know. We have his words... All of us are sinners...
[YBD] Two things are true here, which again points up the intractably antithetical natures of these two opposites:
[LK] So you could be in hell?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Yeah, absolutely, except for the fact that I've embraced god's forgiveness in the person of Jesus.
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] ... this is a subject which has led to my people being turned into, you know, lampshades, and (???) and crusades. People don't...
[LK] Rabbi (interrupting Orthodox R. Boteach's ignoratio elenchi) that's an emotional appeal, and well done, however, if someone has a sincere belief that Christ is the answer and wants to share that with you, why are you hanging the Holocaust around his neck?
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] Racist beliefs lead to racist action; and Christian anti-Judaism leads to anti-Semitism. Every historian knows that to be true, and that's why these beliefs are dangerous.
[ybd] Rabbi Boteach is correct in his declaration (!!!), but failed to keep up with the question currently under focus: recognition of the Jewish Messiah and forgiveness. Recognition of the Jewish Messiah and forgiveness is dangerous to Jews??? That's a laugher. R. Boteach should have made a good point by refocusing on the inherent misojudaism in Christianity. Instead, his constant discourtesy, "lampshade" style ignoratio elenchi, ad hominems and amateurism nullified this extremely critical point.
[LK] [Southern Baptist] Albert Mohler, do you use that term, 'incomplete Jews'?
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] ... I affirm what it intends to mean, and that is a Jew that has not received Jesus the Messiah. Definitely, we believe that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews, and of all the nations, and that to be complete in faith one must receive him and accept him. You know, Larry, one of the best things I heard asked on this program is, 'If Jesus were before us, what would he say?' I believe the best thing to do is to quote him. Two statements. "Come unto me all ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest." That's wonderful. The second statement is just as true: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." That isn't something we made up. That is from the statement of Jesus Himself.
[ybd] Oh, but post-135 CE Christians did indeed make up that second statement, Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler. Only the first of those two statements is found in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) (11.28). The second statement which you claim 'Jesus' said is found only in the post-135 CE redacted Greek Gospels, which are documented to have tens of thousands of redactions (cf. Who Are the Netzarim? (WAN)), and, Eusebius documented, the original Jewish followers of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a rejected. Jesus said it. Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a didn't! The dichotomy is yet again conspicuous. It is also intractably contradictory and antithetical to everything which Tan"kh, and historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, and his original Netzarim Jews followers practiced, stood for, and taught.
The words of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a have been quoted in this analysis. Deal with it!
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] [Southern Baptist] Rev. Mohler, may I quote to you Mt. 5 verse 18 where Jesus says that he came to the world in order to fulfill the law and that anyone who doesn't keep every aspect of the law — he uses the words in the Hebrew of the qotz of the yod, a tiny little piece of the letter of the law — is not fulfilled. Rev. Mohler, do you keep kaskeir? Do you drive on the Shabat? Do you wear tzitzit with the little fringes that we wear? Do you wear a yarmulke? If you don't, why don't you live by everything that Jesus said? Why do you abrogate the law? ... (Unintelligible, as Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler tries to answer while Rabbi Boteach tries to continue talking)
[ybd] Again, this carries the potential to be a blockbuster, but Rabbi Boteach's amateurism bungled the attempt. First, Jesus says nothing whatsoever in Hebrew Matityahu. Historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a speaks in Hebrew Matityahu, never Jesus. The Greek Gospel of St. Matthew in which Jesus is described is irrelevant because it is among "the rest" of the Null Testament (NT) which, early Church historian Eusebius recorded and I remind the reader yet again, was never accepted by the original Jewish followers of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a. This constant blurring of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a with his arch-opposite Jesus brings no end of confusion and can never lead to resolving the misunderstandings and conflict.
Worse, Rabbi Boteach fails to quote the passage correctly, from Hebrew Matityahu — and loses the 'punch line' entirely. Assuming the punch line — which leaves Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler and Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner the escape they eventually take — Rabbi Boteach adds blunder upon bungle. The "jot and tittle" which Rabbi Boteach tries to use as leverage to demonstrate dependence upon Judaism, does not refer to the qotz of the yod. That interpretation isn't supported either in the Greek nor in the Hebrew. Rather, this phrase is "yod and qeren." The latter is better known today among Yemenite Jews as the cantillation symbol azel. A detailed explanation of this is found in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM), note 5.18.1.
Asking Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler if he keeps kaskeir could have been, and should have been, effective if it were handled more adeptly, and if neither Rev. Mohler nor Jews for Jesus Mr. Brickner were permitted to ever wriggle out of the question. This is the key to the entire mess. If Rev. Mohler, Mr. Brickner and other Christians would follow the teachings of Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a there would be no conflict! Driving on Shabat isn't as obvious as keeping kaskeir, which only serves to deflate the impact.
Why didn't Rabbi Boteach ask "Do you keep Shabat?" The answer would have been no, because he keeps sun-god-day — which opens up another whole bucket of worms for Rev. Mohler and Mr. Brickner! "Do you wear tzitzit?" was another excellent example. But then asking about a yarmulke was self-defeating. History documents that other than kohanim, Jews didn't wear head-covering until forced to by the Church; and only subsequently justified the practice by inventing a symbolic meaning for it. So Rabbi Boteach shot himself in the foot again. Moreover, 'yarmulke' is a Yiddish word that has virtually no relevance to Hebrew and Judaism. Why didn't Rabbi Boteach ask questions with more 'locked in' answers. Why don't they wear tephilin? Why doesn't Rev. Mohler wear a beard? (Ooops, many Jews are going to have a problem with that, and Mr. Brickner would be very happy on that point... well, that's the cost of sticking to truth. Get right with the truth and then you don't need to fear truth.)
Rabbi Boteach's play-calling in this instance was faultless. The failure was in the lack of execution. The passage of the words of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a which Rabbi Boteach should have quoted from, The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM), was quoted earlier (excluding the extensive notes, which are found in NHM).
As may be apparent to the reader, this quotation should be recited whenever needed — which is often.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] (in answer to Orthodox Rabbi Boteach's question "Why do you abrogate the law?") Because Jesus did not instruct us to live that way. In fact, Jesus made the point that there is not one of us who is righteous according to the law, that He is the only One Who is righteous by the law, He Himself, and He alone, fulfilled the law.
[ybd] As the earlier quotation made unequivocal:
"Don't think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim, but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ' (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called "deleted." Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to "Pharisees"), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens! ... Take heed against false Neviim who come to you in wool like sheep, but inside they are wolves who extort. You shall recognize them by their works. Do men pick grapes from a stinging-nettle? Or figs from a thistle? So, every green tree is unable to produce evil fruit, and a dried-up tree is unable to produce good fruit."
Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler demonstrates vividly for us the selectivity in accepting what supports Christian doctrines while rejecting what is inconvenient and contradictory to Christian doctrines — selective observance.
It is unfathomable how Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler can be so ignorant of what Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a clearly and unequivocally instructed, but it's unconscionable how he can deny it when confronted with the very words of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, to rebel and reject the very words he claims to follow. There has never been hypocrisy in the same league with Christian hypocrisy!
Beyond that, Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler misunderstands and distorts other words of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a here too. Historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a never intimated in any way that "He is the only One Who is righteous by the law, He Himself, and He alone, fulfilled the law."
"Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a said to him, "Why do you ask me about 'good?' One [ha-Sheim] is good. If you wish to come into life, keep shomeir mitzvot."
Here, Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a declares exactly the same formula as Torah: do your best to keep Torah if you wish to have life in ha-Olam ha-Ba (the age to come)! He didn't say "Believe in Me as the Messiah"! He didn't say "Accept Me as your personal Savior"! How does Rev. Mohler pervert "If you wish to come into life, keep shomeir mitzvot, and Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a's words in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) 5.15-20, into "Jesus did not instruct us to live that way"??? Christians are lost in a post-135 CE pagan Roman deception and counterfeit — their only 'savior' and 'salvation'; and they're doing their utmost to bring every Jew they can into hell with them!!!
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] (continuing) What Jesus also did was to tell us that we should live by His [Christian's interpret this to be Jesus'] Word and the Null Testament (NT) gives us very clear indications it is not a Judaizing that we experience as gentiles coming to Christ. Paul and Peter fought that out in the book of Acts and the lord made His decision very clear. The Church is made up of Jews and gentiles in Christ.
[ybd] You will not find such a thing in The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM). Moreover, if "Jesus" said such a thing then it clearly disqualifies him as a prospective Messiah according to the stipulations quoted earlier from Devarim 13.1-6. On top of this, these Christians are not only superseding, and contradicting, the Tan"kh they depend upon for messianic legitimacy, they contradict the words of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a with post-135 CE redactions of gentile Roman pagans and Paul who, early Church historian Eusebius recorded, was excised as an apostate from the Netzarim. (Though it was pretty well buried by the redactors, the record of Paul's excision is still discernible in the Null Testament (NT) if one knows what to look for.) Christians are correct that it is not Judaizing they experience when they come to Christ, it is a coming to Paul, to an apostate, and to Roman paganism which they experience. Jews, wisely, reject that.
[Caller from Phoenix, AR] Rabbi, since we're talking about Christ as the Messiah, what are the qualifications that they are looking for in the Messiah, and why hasn't Jesus filled those qualifications?
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] The reason that Jesus is not accepted as the Messiah by the Jewish people is that Jesus is viewed as divine. The Jews do not believe in any other divine Being except god Himself.
[ybd] An excellent question which receives an excellent answer. It must be added, however, that other intractable and compelling reasons are that
[LK] Don't you believe the Messiah is coming?
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] Yes, but the Messiah that we believe is coming could be somebody that flunks mathematics in university. He is not infallible, not divine, and would be a student or a disciple of Moses, who, by far, would be considered greater than the Messiah...
[ybd] Rabbi Hier is correct regarding the fallibility of the Mashiakh prophesied in Tan"kh. However, Tan"kh contradicts Rabbi Hier's statement that the Mashiakh would be a disciple of Mosheh who would be considered greater than the Mashiakh. There is a prophesy of the Mashiakh in Torah that there would be a Navi greater than Mosheh — the Mashiakh: Devarim 18.15-18, whom this passage unequivocally commanded we are to obey. The frequent suggestion that this refers to Yehoshua Ben-Nun is frivolous since the last 3 verses of Torah — after Yehoshua Ben-Nun had come to power — confirm that no one like Mosheh had come. While the difference may be slight, the Mashiakh must be a student of Torah, not Mosheh per se.
[LK] How do you now he hasn't come?
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] Well, because the world is still in turmoil. We're told that when the Messiah comes we will all live in peace and tolerance, and since we know that hasn't happened we know for sure that the Messiah has not come.
[ybd] Probably judging that it would be too complex to get into on the show (and probably correctly), Rabbi Hier doesn't mention the Mashiakh Ben Yoseiph (confirmed in Talmud by the way, for those not aware of it), who is the "Suffering Servant" of Yeshayahu 53. However, dealing with the dual Messiahs in Judaism cannot be avoided if Judaism and Christianity are to get to the truth and resolve their conflict.
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] I am an Orthodox rabbi who has read the New Testament cover-to-cover many times...
[ybd] Reading is one thing, sir. Understanding the problem is another. You don't understand Christianity, and every Christian immediately sees that just as surely as they see that I do understand it, and are frightened by someone who does understand and is very knowledgeable about Christianity renouncing Jesus to become an Orthodox Jew. Read The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) — including the extensive notes — and you may develop a handle on it.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] I understand what the rabbi says about the infinite distinction between god and man, and that is precisely what we understand as well... we are told in the Scriptures that god became man in Jesus Christ... and everything in the 'Old Testament' prophesies...
[ybd] If Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler understood what the rabbi said he would see his conspicuous oxymoron. Moreover, the only Scriptures recognized by all of the parties in the interview is the Tan"kh. Scriptures say nothing of the kind. Furthermore, neither does The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM). Only the post-135 CE Roman gentile redacted and misojudaic Christian book says that. It's true of Jesus, but false regarding historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a — another example of the diametrically antithetical natures of these two opposites; one a historical Jew, the other a counterfeit, a Roman gentile pagan idol.
There is no excuse why neither rabbi here rebuked Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler for his petitio principii that the Tan"kh is an 'Old Testament.' Besides being illogical and contra-historical, it's offensive and shouldn't be tolerated in civilized discussion.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] ... to the Jews, as well as to the gentiles, just as we find in the New Testament. As Paul said, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of god unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the gentile.
[ybd] Again, the Null Testament (NT) and Paul are outside the discussion. That these Christians insist that the Jew must be first in accepting their paganism, a direct legacy of the 135 CE and 333 CE Roman founders, is unacceptable. Jews must get the word of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a to Jews for Jesus, the Southern Baptists, and the rest of Christianity!
[LK] Do you want to end Judaism Albert?
[ybd] The reader is alerted to consider Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler's words carefully, because he lies through his teeth in this answer. What you should notice is the difference between Judaism — the question Mr. King asked — and 'ethnic Jews' to which Rev. Mohler redirects attention AFTER he has already lied in answering "No" to the question. Rev. Mohler indeed wants to end Judaism, converting all Jews to Christianity. His response that they would still be ethnically Jewish has nothing to do with the question asked by Mr. King. That Rev. Mohler would characterize ending Judaism as "without any theological significance whatsoever" is unconscionable. Why the rabbis said nothing is unfathomable.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] No, I want to see the Gospel proclaimed to all persons, and the ethnic identity of the person who comes to Christ is absolutely without any theological significance whatsoever. I believe the Jewish people will continue as an ethnic people... I firmly believe that in the time to come as the lord accomplishes His work, we're going to see a massive turning to Christ on the part of the Jews.
[Orthodox R. Schmuley Boteach] Why aren't [secular Christians] being targeted? What do they want from the Jews? ... I was rabbi at Oxford University for 11 years and whenever a Christian student came to talk to me about faith I sent them to a priest... all we hear is these superior claims of these two Christian representatives that we Jews...
[LK] (interrupting the increasingly excitable Rabbi Boteach who tries to continue talking) Are you saying, [Southern Baptist] Albert Mohler, that the Jews are inferior? If he does not believe in Christ?
[ybd] To answer Rabbi Boteach's question, what they want from Jews, if you would listen occasionally, was just spelled out: "the Gospel... to the Jew first." I understand why Oxford University wanted Rabbi Boteach to stay there so long. But Rabbi Boteach's practice only communicates to inquirers that Judaism has no answers, that the priests are the ones with answers, reflecting poorly on Judaism. Rabbi Boteach's ignoratio elenchi have become so profuse, despite Larry King's several admonishments, that Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler can no longer ignore it. Rev. Mohler correctly senses that he has everyone in TV land on his side here. Jews should pay attention here to the well-stated Christian perception of genuine humility.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] Absolutely not. No, there's a lot of flak being thrown up in the air here by the rabbi, in particular Rabbi Boteach. The fact is that we don't believe that anyone is superior or inferior. My humility comes from the fact that I know I'm in need of a Savior, and I did not come up with this Gospel. I did not come up with this understanding of the need for a Savior. This is revealed in Scripture. I have no other option than to humbly believe and to teach what Scripture teaches, and that's what I'm doing here tonight. I know it's offensive to some persons.
[ybd] Here's another example where ground rules spelling out what will be accepted as Scripture would preclude a lot of confusion. Obviously the only Scripture which all of the interviewees accept says nothing of the kind. Neither does The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM). Only their post-135 CE Null Testament (NT) — extensively redacted by rabidly anti-Judaic Romans — says that.
[LK, to MH] Have you ever thought that maybe Christ is the Messiah?
[Orthodox R. Marvin Hier] No, because of the fact that Christ is portrayed as divine and the son of god. Now I believe in a god that doesn't, frankly, need any assistance. He has no sons and no daughters.
[ybd] Rabbi Hier's response made me laugh out loud (in agreement) at the preposterous position of Christianity. But, then he added the last sentence and got into trouble. Tan"kh says that ha-Sheim DOES have sons — Israel. It's not merely pedantic. These are the passages which the post-135 CE Christians misconstrued, and still misconstrue, to support the post-135 CE Roman gentile concept of a divine son, syncretizing the traditions of Horus and subsequent pagan myths of that genre. Again, these things cannot be resolved by avoiding the issues. They must be dealt with squarely. That means becoming better educated in these areas and learning to be more logically careful.
[LK, to Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Have you ever thought that maybe he wasn't the Messiah?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Of course. But, you know, most people who make decisions about Jesus do so in abysmal ignorance, never read the New Testament, don't know what Jesus taught,... Well, I'd like to challenge everybody to read the New Testament before making up their mind about Jesus. Give yourself a chance to hear. Give yourself a chance to hear.
[ybd] It should be reasonably apparent by now that Christians are abysmally ignorant concerning historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, and that they are following a post-135 CE gentile-fabricated counterfeit image which is the diametric opposite of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a. That makes Jesus the 'antichrist,' which, considering it's a product of Roman gentiles, shouldn't be surprising. Danieil prophesied it!!! Following Jesus while being blissfully unaware of all this is unparalleled abysmal ignorance. Excepting a few scholars aware of these things from various research sources, anyone who hasn't read The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) is abysmally ignorant. Do, indeed, educate yourself before following Jesus, or before you follow it any further.
[LK, to Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Do you know Judaism well? Have you read the 'Old Testament'?
[ybd] Mr. King is no exception. "Old Testament" is petitio principii, not to mention offensive. It is an unacceptable term in intelligent discourse.
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner] Not well enough...
[ybd] It should be reasonably obvious by this point that anyone who doesn't understand Judaism reasonably well has no grasp whatsoever of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a!
[LK] [Jews for Jesus] David Brickner, Do you believe that Orthodox R. Boteach is going to hell?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner, evading the question, and the obvious implications of Jn. 14.6, et al.] I believe that all of us are going to hell but god is in the business of saving us an that's why in...
[LK, interrupting to insist Jews for Jesus David Brickner answer his question — 'attaboy' Mr. King] So you're saved and he's not?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner, evading the question, and the obvious implications of Jn. 14.6, et al.]That's why He sent Jesus the Messiah...
[LK, interrupting to insist Jews for Jesus David Brickner answer his question — 'attaboy' Mr. King] So you're saved and he's not?
[Jews for Jesus David Brickner, finally successful in evading the question, and the obvious implications of Jn. 14.6, et al.] I've got my sins forgiven. I don't know how Rabbi Boteach is having his sins forgiven. That's between him and god, and I'm not the one who judges R. Boteach.
[ybd] First, the forgiveness of Jews for Jesus David Brickner's, and all other Christians', sins hangs precariously from a post-135 CE Roman-gentile fabricated counterfeit image.
Second, Rabbi Boteach's forgiveness is called in Hebrew kipur and — Tan"kh guarantees — is dependent solely upon his doing his best to keep the same mitzvot which historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a commanded you to keep but you rebel and refuse, following his antithesis instead.
Tan"kh itself prohibits adding any condition (Devarim 4.1-2, et al. with Mishlei Shlomoh 30.5-6). Thus, Tan"kh itself, upon which any prospective Messiah is dependent for legitimacy, precludes adding a condition that one must accept the Messiah.
How ha-Sheim provides kipur isn't part of the equation; it isn't any part of the requirement for receiving that kipur. The only requirement is exactly as historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a stated — which you reject.
What a shocking turnout: Christians aren't saved but Torah-observant Jews are!!! That's the message of historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a!!! It's also the reason this former Southern Baptist, church organist, and independent Baptist preacher renounced Christianity and Jesus and converted to Orthodox Judaism! That's humility, sirs; admitting you've been wrong most of your life and making the decision to correct the error.
[LK] But you're making a judgment here. You're telling us if he doesn't accept Christ he's in trouble.
[Southern Baptist Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.] I would say that the lord Jesus Christ Himself said that we are to go unto all the world and make disciples of all nations. Larry, I believe that we, who are Christians, will face god and give an answer for whether we did everything within our power to tell as many people as possible about god's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ our lord, and we want, by god's grace, to be able to give a good answer. We pray to see men and women, young persons, old persons, persons of all ethnic backgrounds, come to faith in the lord Jesus Christ for He is the Messiah and the Savior of the world.
[ybd] The passage Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler quotes here is one of the most redacted passages there is. The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) reads:
"Go and watchguard over the authority, prestige and Realm, to ratify all of these things, which I tzivah (commanded as a mitzvah), to the qeitz (cut-off) of the age."
This passage, in fact, commands that Netzarim Jews, not gentiles, go forth and keep (Hebrew shomeir), and ratify, the authority of Torah and halakhah — which is entirely consistent with what he commanded as documented earlier — to the cut-off of the age! But, then, that merely scratches the surface of the many misconceptions which Christians have about historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, because of their ignorance of Judaism. They can remedy their ignorance by studying The Netzarim Reconstruction of Hebrew Matityahu (NHM).
The interview is wrapped up with a question to Southern Baptist Rev. Mohler about past segregationist policies.
It's appropriate here to comment directly to Southern Baptists on a great controversy which erupted from the Southern Baptists Convention a few years ago which was never properly resolved: Does ha-Sheim answer the prayers of Jews? The answer is in Tan"kh: Mishlei Shlomoh 28.9.
Now Southern Baptists have decided to mount a special mission to convert Jews. In light of the above, this is a classic illustration of the teaching of the historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a, that Southern Baptists would have "the blind lead the blind."
It defies reason to follow the Roman counterfeit and deception prophesied in Danieil as the "Beast" who would change the times and seasons, which is obviously, and widely recognized as, Rome.
While this is true for gentiles, it is even more true for Jews who have the background to reject paganism and mixing the unholy with the holy.
The question you must answer is why you would continue to follow a Roman pagan religion and 'Jesus' which (not 'who') is diametrically and intractably antithetical to the historical Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a??? Whether you are a Christian Jew or Christian gentile, learn how you can become like Rib′ i Yәho•shu′ a — a legitimate part of legitimate Israel and the legitimate Jewish community.
Yet another Larry King Show included Rev. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., Pres., Southern Baptist Theological Seminary among the interviewees to discuss "Who is Jesus?" on 2000.07.07 (order "Larry King Show II (2000.07.07)" in our archives.
Learn the authentic teachings of Ribi Yehoshua in our Khavruta. (Click on the appropriate ministry in the panel at left and read down to the Khavruta link to find our Syllabus page.)
 |
|
 |