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| Pâ•qidꞋ Yi•rᵊmᵊyâhꞋu |
2000.12.10, J. P., Denver, Colorado, U.S.A. – This should be posted to the Convention Center under Christianity under the thread of "What is wrong with SANJ", the transmit button is not working.
After making some technical changes I inadvertently disconnected the acknowledgment page from the submission form. The transmit button did work but the site couldn’t let you know that it worked. I’ve just reconnected the acknowledgement page. (Now I’ll need to make that same correction for all of the other eZines.) Thanks for bringing it to my attention. (Since you are a non-Jew, though, please use the Mi•sᵊradꞋ ha-Khutz and not the Mi•sᵊradꞋ ha-Qᵊlit•âhꞋ in such cases.)
I have just completed the Who Are the Netzarim? (WAN) book and am now moving to step 2. I will be purchasing the next book in the next few weeks. I too have questions regarding other "Nazarene" groups, specifically SANJ. To my knowledge SANJ is the only other organized group other than yours that claim to be Nazarenes. Now, I read the book and fully understand your legitimacy versus theirs. In fact, I think I agree with your conclusions, but have about 150 questions before I can say with more confidence. One comment/question is have you formally contacted Mr. Trimm and attempted reconcilliation? Being the authentic, but soemwhat obscure in the US, perhaps Mr. trimm wasn't even aware of your organization?
Mr. Trimm contacted me years ago… in the middle of the night Israel time. I’m not sure I was very coherent. But he knows about us, he refuses to make the necessary changes to become acceptable to legitimate Judaism and, consequently, remains in Displacement Theology.
You yourself started your congregation as a synagogue w/o first getting a kashrut pass, perhaps SANJ was attempting the same?
That’s neither accurate nor true. It’s true, of course, that I didn’t start off “kosher.” However, from the get-go I did my utmost to work with the legitimate Jewish community to legitimately achieve Orthodox recognition entirely straightforwardly, without subterfuge of any kind, to become “kosher” by legitimate standards. That was only possible because é‑‑ä had shown me how the historical RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa was never Christian and would never have accepted Christian doctrines – which I renounced along with Jesus and the Christian Διαθηκη Καινη (NT). I strove from the very start to bring both myself, and those of the congregation, within legitimate Ha•lâkh•âhꞋ.
At every step, I sought, and received (“seek and you shall find”), direction from the legitimate Jewish community, and a couple of Orthodox rabbis, thereby bringing myself into compliance with Ha•lâkh•âhꞋ. That is what ultimately brought me into a practice which is acceptable to those Orthodox rabbis who really know me. Mr. Trimm’s refusal to do exactly that – to subordinate to the authority of a legitimate Orthodox Beit Din and bring himself into compliance with Ha•lâkh•âhꞋ – is what confines him in Displacement Theology, the founding pillar of Christianity, and excludes him from legitimate Judaism.
In glaring contrast to my direction, Mr. Trimm has consistently rejected the notion of subordination to Ha•lâkh•âhꞋ , direction from the Orthodox Jewish community including me, and the Orthodox rabbis – over a period of many years that I know of. That is Displacement Theology, setting himself up as an authority in place of the legitimate Tor•âhꞋ authority. Thus, Mr. Trimm has, so far, never been headed in the right direction to ever become legitimate. I think it’s the second book of our free on-line Kha•vᵊr•utꞋâ distance learning, Atonement In the Biblical 'New Covenant' (ABNC), which gets into the topic of mi•shᵊpâtꞋ (and, thereby, discussion of the centrality of Ha•lâkh•âhꞋ, as documented in Ta•na"khꞋ itself as well as Dead Sea Scroll (4Q) MMT, etc.)… because we realize those questions will arise.
It seems that w/o first confronting your brother according to Mattityahu 18 in private it would not be acceptable to be so costic in regards to judgement about them.
No one outside the legitimate Jewish community, much less anyone mired in Displacement Theology, qualifies under Tor•âhꞋ to be recognized or treated as a brother of anyone in the Jewish community. One doesn’t become a “brother” by self-proclamation, self-authority, self-assertion or simple presumption; only by meeting the criteria and definition of a Jew or geir in Tor•âhꞋ. Mr. Trimm, if I understand his situation correctly, doesn’t qualify as either. Even if Mr. Trimm was a Jew, and my understanding is that he isn’t, he would be regarded as an apostate like other Christian “Messianic Jews.” A phony “beit din” founded and headed by an apostate advocating Displacement Theology is as heretical now as it was in 135 C.E.
Your comments MUST have more reasoning than simply you are accepted by Orthodoxy and SANJ (AS well as all other messianics) is not. I understand this intimates displacement of the authorized Beit din, but perhaps they are ignorant and/or haven't seen the opportunity to effectively cross the bridge as of yet.
I find it incredible that you, an outsider to legitimate Judaism and Tor•âhꞋ, presume to instruct Orthodox Jews what a Hebrew book you cannot even read instructs, misrepresenting that that we “must” admit Displacement Theology as legitimate Judaism.
Your declaration is itself Displacement Theology, arrogantly presuming to displace the Tor•âhꞋ-authorized legitimate Beit Din with your own self-presumed, Christian perspective, intuitive gentile “authority.” In fact, no further reason beyond Displacement Theology – which is, by definition, in opposition to legitimate Tor•âhꞋ authority – is needed, according to the criteria of Tor•âhꞋ, to expose a poseur. Tor•âhꞋ, not your Christian perspective, is the authority, particularly since you lack both knowledge of Tor•âhꞋ (or even the ability to read it) and any recognition within legitimate Judaism, even as a geir.
Nor will you find in Tor•âhꞋ that ignorance is any justification for transgressing Tor•âhꞋ. One is required to seek, study, learn and practice Tor•âhꞋ. If it’s possible to comply with a mi•tzᵊwâhꞋ (some aren’t possible because the Beit ha-Mi•qᵊdâshꞋ no longer exists, nor (since ca. 135 C.E., 333 C.E. at the latest) are there any extant yo•khas•inꞋ of ko•han•imꞋ) then you’re required to comply with it. Ignorance excuses no one. RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa taught this precept of Tor•âhꞋ as well, requiring in the form of a command that one: “Seek and you shall find,” as well as the admonishment that one must keep Tor•âhꞋ non-selectively. Thus, RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa’s teaching – though the Tor•âhꞋ teaching would have stood even without RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa’s confirmation – also necessarily requires subordination to a legitimate Beit Din (not a counterfeit outside the legitimate Jewish community). Only those who live alien to the legitimate Jewish community (the world community of Israel, who is the sole inheritor of the eternal promises of é‑‑ä) are ignorant of these things.
It would seem by being opposed to SANJ specifically is detrimental to the restoration of the original Netzarim.
No, the problem is that you are yet another Christian who can't even read the Ta•na"khꞋ presuming to be knowledgeable and arrogantly presuming to advise Orthodox Jews in matters you know almost nothing about. Exactly the opposite to how it seems to you. SANJ is a counterfeit representing yet another sect of Displacement Theology = Christianity and, consequently, in deceiving, misleading and, in leading many astray of legitimate teachings and practices of Tor•âhꞋ – the authentic teachings of RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa. Misrepresenting these is the most detrimental thing there could possibly be to the restoration of the original – legitimate – Nᵊtzâr•imꞋ. Who are those living alien to legitimate Israel and, therefore, ignorant of Tor•âhꞋ, unable to even read it and hopelessly lost, yet presuming to know more than those who have studied it for millennia? Many are those who have been deceived and led astray by the Displacement Theology of Sâ•tânꞋ. Incidentally, Sâ•tânꞋ, in Hebrew, means polemicist, impugner or adversary – perfectly describing advocates of Displacement Theology / Christianity.
For SANJ is set apart in some very drastic ways from the Messianics and certainly no where near x-tians. In fact, the primary difference I am discovering between you two is you have achieved legitimacy under an Orthodox beit-din and his hasn't. A lot of the rest may be simple disputes that could take place in the context of one fellowshipping community, not dividing issues. Afterall, who is to prevent SANJ from getting the same approval as you from the Orthodox Beit Din? And if they did and you two weren't ofe one accord, what have we now done to further the schisms in Judaism?
So are Mormons, J--H’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate and many others drastically different in their own way. By what authority do you pronounce them drastically different? Do you presume to know Tor•âhꞋ better than I? Better than the Orthodox rabbis of centuries? Better than an Orthodox Beit Din? Better than the Jewish Sages of millennia preceding us? Seriously? Have you taken leave of your senses? You are dismissing the authority of all of these… and that can never be acceptable to the Orthodox rabbis or an Orthodox Beit Din. (That, of course, includes the Nᵊtzâr•imꞋ Beit Din.)
SANJ, Christians and Christian-Messianics are all merely different versions of Displacement Theology: poseurs, counterfeits – phony, quacks. The more real-looking a counterfeit is the more deceptive and insidious. All other differences between them and any other sect of Christianity / Messianics is minor and irrelevant by Tor•âhꞋ criteria – and that is what an Orthodox Beit Din and Orthodox rabbis and legitimacy in the Orthodox Jewish community is all about. The problem is that you aren’t relating to Tor•âhꞋ or Tor•âhꞋ authority yet. Hopefully, just as WAN prepared you with some of the basics, Atonement In the Biblical 'New Covenant' (ABNC) can now help you to relate to this also.
I tell you this in contsruct my friend. I found you because I heard Mr. Trimm teach at a Messianic Torah study and that is what God used to tell me of the Netzarim. You didn't come to me and or even offer any significant ourtreach in the US. (this is not a criticism on your outreach, but a compliment to how God has used SANJ and other Messianics) Now Hasheim has brought me to your gate and I thank Him, but perhaps SANJ is deserving some credit for pushing me to further teshuvah. I no longer attend a Messianic anything, but a house fellowhsip, because I can't find anyone who wants to be like you, or rather pro-Torah Reibi Yehoshua except SANJ. My family is zealous for Torah - all Torah - and Yeshoshua - so give me some counsel my friend. And tell me, are only those who are afforded recognition by an Orthodox Beit-Din have a place in the olam-haba? Is God restricted to saving only those who have obtained what you have in Certification, versus those who DO what you do, yet have no formal certification? Is the certification itself our goal or is it not what we DO?
Therein is your repeated error. Those who DO what we do have renounced Jesus, the Christian Διαθηκη Καινη (NT) and its Hellenist idolatry Displacement Theology and obtained formal certification from the Orthodox Jewish community. Neither Mr. Trimm nor you (at least not yet) DO what we do. “By their fruits you shall know them…” The only credit SANJ and Mr. Trimm merit is an accurate description of their work: poseurs, counterfeits pushing Displacement Theology more effectively than most of the rest. If anyone is due credit for helping you in your journey it’s something called your own free will to seek truth, and that was granted to you by é‑‑ä; not, lᵊ‑ha•vᵊdilꞋ, Mr. Trimm, nor, lᵊ‑ha•vᵊdilꞋ, me, nor any other mortal. My counsel is to get out of Displacement Theology entirely, carrying none of its baggage with you and, as Lot was advised, don’t look back. Atonement In the Biblical 'New Covenant' (ABNC) will help you relate better to these things.
Surely a man is not saved because he is recognized by the Beit-din. Surely our salvation comes by faith and is an act of mercy and grace on the part of God. I know I need your atonement book, but my torah tells me no man is jsutified according to torah observance for no man con completely observe! Dovid says Hasheim requires a broken and contrite heart, observance in our inward parts, not just outward halakha acceptance. A Jew is not one who is one outwardly, but one who is one inwardly - that comes straight from the Tanakh, it ain't x-tian it's Hasheim, and I haven't heard you saying this.
I’m incredulous that you maintain that Romans 2.28 comes from, lᵊ‑ha•vᵊdilꞋ, the Ta•na"khꞋ!!! Nothing is more basically Christian than this most blatant pillar of miso-Judaic Displacement Theology. How preposterous for a gentile Christian, who can't even read Tor•âhꞋ, to presume to suggest that one can be a Jew inwardly by being the opposite of a Jew outwardly; it's the most hypocritical – and stupid – suggestion in Christianity. You shall never hear me saying that!!!
Take me out of the picture for a moment. It’s the original miso-Judaism of the post-135 C.E. Roman Hellenists for someone who probably cannot read Tor•âhꞋ to have the temerity to presume to teach their own, Hellenist, idolatrous Christian, “understanding” to those who have millennia of experience and knowledge in reading Tor•âhꞋ. You manifest classic Displacement Theology… you, as an outsider who cannot read Tor•âhꞋ presume to know better and teach and preach to those who are its rightful heirs and authority for millennia according to the eternal promises of é‑‑ä, supplanting the Tor•âhꞋ-appointed authority just like the original, first, Christians did in 135 C.E.
The hard fact is that you have many misconceptions about what Tor•âhꞋ says – as opposed to what you think Tor•âhꞋ says. Nowhere does Tor•âhꞋ even remotely suggest that faith and mercy is sufficient for ki•purꞋ without repenting and returning to Tor•âhꞋ-observance any more than it suggests the converse (that Tor•âhꞋ-observance is sufficient without faith and mercy). While you may find it startling because it contradicts Christian perceptions of Jews, this isn’t news to Jews. Moreover, Tor•âhꞋ requires, you’ll discover in Atonement In the Biblical 'New Covenant' (ABNC), subordination to the legitimate Beit Din. Therefore, a man not obtaining the blessing of the legitimate Beit Din transgresses Tor•âhꞋ. While the Beit Din doesn’t do the “saving,” to use your inaccurate Christian phraseology, “Surely a man is not saved” if he isn’t even “recognized by the Beit Din” – because he is continuing in transgressing Tor•âhꞋ.
It is also a Christian misnomer, explicitly contradicting Tor•âhꞋ, to claim that Tor•âhꞋ requires perfect compliance in order to obtain ki•purꞋ. If perfect compliance were required there would be neither provision for ki•purꞋ (for non-existent sin?) nor anything to which ki•purꞋ could apply! Tor•âhꞋ requires that one do their utmost and repent of any shortcoming and get back to compliance with Tor•âhꞋ. Those who don’t comply with Tor•âhꞋ while claiming “salvation” based on “faith and mercy” are hypocrites that make even the Christian and miso-Judaic perception of “Pharisees” look like saints by comparison.
Even more miso-Judaic, your assertion insinuates that you and SANJ have – and Orthodox Jews are lacking by contrast – “broken and contrite hearts,” that you and SANJ have “salvation [which] comes by faith and is an act of mercy and grace on the part of God” – which Orthodox Jews don’t.
If you had read Atonement In the Biblical 'New Covenant' (ABNC) before putting your foot in your mouth one of the many discoveries you would have made is that éùåòä – “salvation” – in Ta•na"khꞋ refers to é‑‑ä saving Israel militarily and nationally. éùåòä in Ta•na"khꞋ has no connection (other than confusion by those alien to Hebrew and Judaism) to the personal – or spiritual – application that you’re talking about; and, even if it did, not even the Διαθηκη Καινη (NT) hints that it would refer to ΑΛΛΟΓΕΝΗΣ! So it turns out that your misconceptions are indeed Christian baggage and not “told” to you by Tor•âhꞋ.
If SANJ DOES what you do, are they not afforded at least a kind word of rebuke along with encouragement…seomthing like" hey - excellent! Praise Adonai for your seeking so far, you have begun to travel toward the dereke, now allow me to help you further…" I don't quote this as scripture, but doesn't the account of Appolos seem right to you? He was a man zealously teaching, but needed a little further instruction, which he received with a glad heart from Aquila. What do you say?
If SANJ does what we do they will cease to exist just as I closed my original “synagogue” when I subordinated to an Orthodox Jewish Bât•eiꞋ-Din in the legitimate Orthodox Jewish community. SANJ DOES the opposite of what we DO. Q.E.D. The account of Apollos isn’t Tor•âhꞋ, Ta•na"khꞋ or Ha•lâkh•âhꞋ, which comprise the authority we recognize. If you wish to approach legitimate Judaism, confine yourself to legitimate authorities within legitimate Judaism in the Jewish, not gentile or Christian, world.. As you found documented in WAN, that most definitely does NOT include the Διαθηκη Καινη (NT).
Finally, what do you say about a person who has obtained recognition by the Orthodox Beit-din and have assimilated into a Beit-Knesset and do openly confess Yehoshua? Are they Netzarim? Why do I need the authority of the Netzarim beit-din if a rabbi has confirmed me? Asking only to understand, not attempting to usurp the authority God has given you brother, for I recognize you have been blessed truly. And allow me to close by saying, please forgive me for any offense, as I am still learning and I know you are the Elder, I don't mean to challenge you disrespectfully. I wish to convey my utmost respect for your position, blessing and annointing and authority, for I can not go against God's annointed. Please instruct brother, thank you and shalom!
Beside the Nᵊtzâr•imꞋ, properly recognized by our Beit Din, there are no others following RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa as Mâ•shiꞋakh who are recognized by Orthodox Jewish rabbinic authorities! Moreover, Orthodox authorities are in agreement with us in not recognizing any other followers of RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa other than the Nᵊtzâr•imꞋ. So there will be no others outside of the Nᵊtzâr•imꞋ in the future – just as there weren’t any other authentic followers of RibꞋi Yᵊho•shuꞋa as Mâ•shiꞋakh than the Nᵊtzâr•imꞋ in the legitimate Jewish community in the past. What Orthodox rabbi, or Orthodox Beit Din, or Orthodox beit ha-kᵊnësꞋët has confirmed you while “openly – straightforwardly – confess[ing] Jesus”? (Using a Hebrew name doesn't change your Christian stripes, Διαθηκη Καινη (NT) authority and doctrines.) Provide the names and contact information and I will verify it with the Orthodox rabbis in your area as well as Jews for Judaism. I assure you that pursuing this claim isn’t in your best interest. I suggest you first read Colorado Missionaries Infiltration Unmasked By Jews For Judaism (1999.06.08).
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